Frustrating.
That's one word to describe how I feel about church at the moment. A while ago, a speaker once said that church was like a hospital; where people go to get better. I disagree, because no one wants to stay in a hospital; no matter how good the food is or the facilities are. You want to leave as soon as you get better
But church is another proposition. You get your sick people, but they find that it's a good place to hang out; not necessarily to get well. And soon, they thrive in their neurosis and hangups instead of dealing with them. The more appropriate place that corresponds to this would be an...asylum
Harsh words? To be sure. I have never minced words and lately, the increasing weariness of dealing with the same old cra..wait, this is a Christian blog so let me use a Greek word that Paul used: 'skubalon'. It means rubbish, dung,etc etc. Hmm..not any nicer than the expletive that I had to stop myself from using.
If you asked me what a church should look like. I would say that it's a place where people are honest and authentic, or can be without being condemned. That's not to say that you can't be rebuked lovingly, but that you can bring up something and it's okay to do so.
What prevents this is fear. The fear of being ridiculed, rejected and run out of the group. Three R's that Satan has used to great effect to build a nice church with a myriad of walls internally. All the rallies, all the revivals and restorationist movements will not help. These have been the church's typical responses to Satan's 3 "R"s. Unfortunately, the church's little r's would make much of a permanent dent. Why?
Because the church needs a transformation from the inside out. That's how the Holy Spirit works. Not outside in like so many of these churches like to think. All the programs, all the techniques and all the whizz bang speakers and music will amount to nothing more than a light 5 minute drizzle on parched desert land. The water must come from the underground and it must saturate the soil from down to up. Then, and only then will you see sustaining growth
Will this happen to my church? God, I hope so.
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11 comments:
About what the church would look like and the condemning part. I think that Christians (or most) should be less condemning about the things outside of the Christian circle. Wait... I mean less condemning about everything around them.
At times I don't feel like I'm at a church because the members (youths too) condemn everything under the sun from Rev Ricky, to Rev Buell, to our beloved prime minister. You name it, they've condemned it, except themselves. There is a difference between condemning and making a joke. Like example, most of us make fun of Rev Buell's sermons being able to make us fall asleep, but we do agree that some of his sermons are good.
Worse of all, they condemn, but can't take condemnation. These perfect people... pfft!
We need more of Rev Michael Wong's slapping sermons! (Your words are condemn!!!!!!!)
lolz. i'll tell rev buell. (joking oni. :P)
well...i guess there is a difference between condemn and crticize. We have no right to condemn anyone...the bible says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. If God doesn't condemn us if we are truly in Christ, what gives us the position to condemn fellow brothers and sisters in Christ?
Criticize can be constructive. Like in you example u said rev buell sermons make people sleep but some of his sermons are good. Those two statements are crtics of his sermons. If you tell rev buell, he will feel encouraged that some of his sermons are good but he knows he has to work on his presentation so that it won't be so boring.
my 2 cents...(correct me if i am wrong...>.<)
btw bjjmissionary, good and truthful post. i agree with you.
Jason, your point is very valid. The youth are a spoilt bunch..but..only because the adults sometimes can be worse.
I've heard some of the worst criticisms of Rev Buell's sermons from adults in most cases..and they have been the most mean spirited.
Does this mean we shouldn't criticise? No, we can but it should be done in a Spirit of Love and a sincere desire for improvement; not because our selfish desires want a more exciting sermon
I didn't totally agree with Rev Michael Wong's statement on condemnation; personally, I think it was a little on the personal side (as he usually is)
Ian, the condemning part stems from the larger problem of people in our church not being loving. I now see that you were totally right about the cliques issue a while ago and this is a much larger problem than I first saw it. So I stand corrected
What I mean is that some people in church are so comfortable in their own groups that they don't see anything wrong with the larger church. Their 'church' (i.e: they and their friends) are just peachy fine
Most Christians see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear and read what they want to read.
I'm sure a lot of them "holier than thou" Christians have not read the book of Revelations. And as well as some scary verses. My brother has quoted a few which makes Christianity sound like a crazy whacked religion.
Walking Disaster, that is a good point. Witness Sarah Palin, her moronic comments on the end times and regurgitated anti-evolution comments have made Christians, as a whole look,like a bunch of uneducated, close minded nitwitted kataks di bawah tempurung.
I have always maintained that the world is quite happy for us Christians to dance and sing like children, play hide and seek demon deliverance and make ludicrous pseudo-scientific comments. It just means that they can separate and control us more easily.
It's sad but sometimes I'm almost embarassed to be around my fellow brethren when they go from really nice person to spouter of nonsensical garbage
No wonder we have so many cliques in church. We can find comfort in the company of those who think like us
As I said, it's like Tanjung Rambutan
heyz... just a bit too much time on my hands..decide to disturb.. hehe..
Well we are talking bout perfection aren't we? The ideal? Sadly in this time and age, it doesn't exist. But it should never mean we shouldn't try.
The condemning issue kinda co incise with the Malaysian mentality a bit also. Let me elaborate, example: we love to complain about things we don't have. Fuel price go up, we complain but keep silent that we still are getting the best price for it amongst others. Condemning other islam and others around us is also something we just gravitate to. Even though there are still cracks in our own armour. No one wants to admit their flaws so the best way to deflect is to and condemn others out there le. Its the easier way out mer.
Am i making sense? hehe...they are just coming straight from my head. I might be wrong but yea it is frustrating when you look at the way people label everything but themselves.
I want to throw this question to you guys. If perfection cannot be achieved whats the point in chasing for it? How would you answer this?
For me, I say its the journey that matters. As long as you strive for the best, there is always the comfort of falling on 2nd best, that it self is still better than nothing. But does it mean I am settling for mediocrity?
Glenn, only God is perfect. Humans can only achieve near perfection, but will never be perfect. You can't be perfect in everything. Take a few church members for example. Some of them have the brains, the sport agility, know the Bible from A to Z, but their attitude sucks (big hint on sports :P Glenn should know who I'm talking about)
Anyway, if life was perfect, everyone will be pushing their religions aside.
Glenn, good to see your post.My resoponse.The normal Malaysian way is to whinge about it and if asked to do something about it, they said "nothing will change, mah..that's the wau it is..". Sounds familiar?So the normal response is that people leave the church or they backstab (i no mince words one) it until it becomes poisononous environmentMy solution?Be subversiveHave serious bible study in YOUR church, not the B.S crap they ask you to teach. Worship lead SERIOUSLY..not the junk songs they ask you to do to feel good. If they find out and not accept you, a.k.a kick you out...let God deal with it. If God loves his church - he will not see it fail. If he doesn't - it willStrong words? Think I'm asking God for a fight? ...you're damn right, check the scriptures. If anything, God hates the 'tidak apa' attidude of most Malaysian ChristiansJason, while I agree with you on the non-perfection part. Can I lovingly rebuke you and say that your response is wrong? You are wholly right in saying that humans are not going to achieve perfection in this life...but the problem is that this has been made an excuse to bypass gross lax behaviour in the church.I don't care if you cheat on your taxes or download porn. Ofyo course that is important. But if you have no love and no awareness of of what the higher life is, then even if you file your form B correctly and your hard drive is porn-clean...it means nothing....you've missed the pointCorinthians 13
Glenn..."Fuel price go up, we complain but keep silent that we still are getting the best price for it amongst others." Best price when convert to Malaysian ringgit, yes. But the price go up, our income still the same. Therefore, we can complain because a larger proportion of our income is use for fuel. Other countries it seems more expensive but it is actually cheaper because their pay is higher...a smaller proportion is used on fuel.
Lol...i digressed...:P It is true that no one can be perfect in this life. But, like mike said, its not to be used as an excuse. I think a parallel can be drawn with salvation(?). Many people think that when we receive Christ and Christ has forgiven us, we can continue sinning. After all, we can just say sorry to God and He will forgive.
We all know that this is a blatant disrespect for the sacrifice Christ made for us. Paul in his letters had strong words for this kind of people. They say we are all sinners so we can't help it. By saying that, they are admitting that sin still has power over them.
Jesus said, "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". He wants us to strive towards perfection (the journey) and not make excuses. Same with salvation. We are called to be sinless. Obviously, its not possible as long we are in our sinful body. But we must strive to be sinless and not make excuses for the flesh.
My 2 cents...
Hey Glenn, I agree with your last comment. We should strive even though we are not going to be perfect till we get to Heaven
There is a dangeorus idea floating around some mega churches that once saved, always saved means that we don't have to ask for further forgiveness for sinning because tehcnically we are not sinners anymore
I'm not going to say anything, I just want you all to think about it and see whether this is right
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